S646se - Full LITHIUM Pack Project - First Attempt

[steves1977uk]

You still need to understand it, the cells, the wiring, the charging etc to maintain and stay problem free.

But once you go lithium done PROPERLY theres no going back to lead. That permenant worry about "will I have enough battery to get back", that actually prevents you using much of the crappy range lead gives anyway, is gone. Theres always enough.

So you quite naturally tend to venture further, for longer and go out later in an evening into town worry free. Even if you forgot to charge the night before. If you are the type that gets out and about its massively life changing.

And again done properly, with a 40A PL8 charger you can shove a massive 35 miles back into it, in just 2 hours!
It takes 10 to 16 hours to do that with lead, even then you will only get 15 miles to dead.

And remember that after 6 months the lead will give much less. After a year in heavy use its due for replacement. Instead of 10+

Yes, you have to look after the cells as BM says, otherwise they'll die much faster.

Steve

[terry2]

https://www.sandringhamestate.co.uk/house-museum-and-gardens/

Nice!

They lived on the estate in a bungalow. All I can remember is there was a house that had a water wheel on a hump back bridge.
And the fish and chips there was sent by god! I also loved going to hunstanton and pick sea weed up for dinner hmmmmmmmm

[terry2]

You still need to understand it, the cells, the wiring, the charging etc to maintain and stay problem free.

But once you go lithium done PROPERLY theres no going back to lead. That permenant worry about "will I have enough battery to get back", that actually prevents you using much of the crappy range lead gives anyway, is gone. Theres always enough.

So you quite naturally tend to venture further, for longer and go out later in an evening into town worry free. Even if you forgot to charge the night before. If you are the type that gets out and about its massively life changing.

And again done properly, with a 40A PL8 charger you can shove a massive 35 miles back into it, in just 2 hours!
It takes 10 to 16 hours to do that with lead, even then you will only get 15 miles to dead.

And remember that after 6 months the lead will give much less. After a year in heavy use its due for replacement. Instead of 10+

Yes, you have to look after the cells as BM says, otherwise they'll die much faster.

Steve

Time to do more reading then and maybe get someone else interested.

[steves1977uk]

Thank you. I will keep you in mind if I don't find anyone else.
How's Norfolk these days? My granddad was born and bred there. He lived in sandringham. I loved the place.

Norfolk is getting popular with tourists! There seem to be more people coming to Wells each year! Today is absolute gorgeous, sunny and warm Might have a BBQ at the weekend

Steve

[Burgerman]

Look its not that hard.

Expresso had no clue, went a bit mental, bought a fully equiped workshop, soldering irons, learnt to solder, and eventually did a good job, learnt a lot, and now has an addon, a full pack, and a load of knowledge he never had. And now the confidence to fix things himself.

True, we broke him a couple of times. And now he gabbles incoherently and makes thousands word posts that non of us understand. But it was worth it. Ask him.

[steves1977uk]

True, we broke him a couple of times. And now he gabbles incoherently and makes thousands word posts that non of us understand. But it was worth it. Ask him.

Haha BM His posts can be a maze to decypher Now we just have to help him get his PC set up properly!

Steve

[expresso]

You should fit the addon, and do a test. Take the PL8 and a phone. Call a freind to bring a car you can recharge the batteries from. And set the GPS. Then just go at 7AM as far away as you can go.

Should use about 2.1Ah per mile as before. And you have 141Ah... So about 67 miles.
At that point save the journey on your phone and call a car! That would be a record.

that would be nice - i would be exhasted myself - forget friends with cars etc, - there are no friends here - all my friends i grew up with are all gone - all up north - married kids - i havnt seen them in over 15 years - friends are over rated
what is a friend anyway ? true definition of a friend - and you realize not many meet those definitions - i may know alot of people - thats different - but anyway - i am in the city NYC - no one likes to travel to the city - drive etc,

i will do the bridge when weather is good - with the chair alone - no ADD on - i should be able to do that - i see how i feel - maybe i will use the ADD ON to be safe -

i think if i had another 10 miles range on the ADD ON chair - i would have made it over the bridge and back - so with the full pack chair - should be good enough - i wonder how low it will get -

[expresso]

@expresso
Once you've finished building yours, it's time to come to England and build mine

i would do it for anyone if i can help - too bad i am not there - are you far away from BM etc, - but i am no expert for sure - how i got it done was a mix of a few things all coming together - sort of like our universe

but i hate to have to rely on others - everyone says yeah yeah i help you if you need - just let me know when etc, - then when you need them - they cant make it - or you have to wait a week to flip a pack over takes 5 secs to do -

so i am trilled it got done - i managed to do it with the least amount of outside help - besides me and my girls - i had just one other person flip it twice and thats it - i just hope i never have to remove it -

[expresso]

What are you actually asking them?

They will build a too small pack, and add a BMS and a dumb charger. You will gain little in range or service life and it will cost almost the same...

No. I asked if they could make a 72 cell pack like the one here. They said no. No harm in asking.

that sucks- but like everyone else said - no one will take that job on since they really dont even understand what to do and how - everyone on here knows more than the Shop - even the engineerr from PG - emailed me about it when i told him what i was doing - send him pictures etc, - he offered to help me set up the programming also if needed - he would make adjustments to it and send it back etc, - he was very interested to know about it

no one other than this site that i know of - talks about it and or does it - no one will either - and if it wasnt for this site - who would have known - not me - it does suck that no one can help or is willing to do it - like BM said - they dont want to be liable for anything - they really done know or understand how its done for the wheelchair - but yet they claim they are experts at there field -

i am no expert thats for sure - i feel good that i can copy what i did for myself - the ADD on - thats very simple now - - and for most users i think thats the easy simple fast way to do it - and just get started - maybe all you would need for most

i got a good 22 miles out of the chair with the ADD ON - and i may have had a few more miles in there - i was not going to do a 72 cell chair - i didnt like how it fit - too close for comfort - Scollard to the rescue - and ended up with 56 cells - and 105ah - perfect fit in the chair - i feel better about how it fits - math dosnt lie - - every chair is different - even if 24 batteries came out of it - it was just so tight and forced in there - i didnt like it -

[expresso]

Terry - If a full pack is out of reach for what ever reasons - how about a ADD ON ? to start - thats simple - get brand new MK GeL 24 batteries - then 15ah cells - two rolls - 16 cells - that will give you 30ah extra -

one cable from the MK Gels and then hang the ADD ON on the back of the chair in a backpack - - connect to the cable from the MK Gel - and your done - you have to make a few cables from the ADD ON - for charging and connecting to the chair etc, -

but do use the Pl 8 - and charge that way - forget the BMS like i started with - lasted about two weeks -before i went the right way - i redid that ADD on about 4 times - but now it looks nice - works great - charges great - worth it -

think about that if you cant get the full pack done in the chair - i got easy 22 mile out of it - - is that enough for your use - that range ?

[Burgerman]

Lithium batts (all 3 main types) appeared first on the hobby scene. Everything cutting edge always does. I have been playing with them and torturing them for longer than your mobile phones and laptops had them.

I use basic electronics, ohms law, and experiance and hobby knowledge including charging methods, and just scaled things up to powerchair size. The few companies that are about selling lithium batteries to DIY car makers, DIY ebike builders do not generally have this knowledge. Nor do powerchair manufacturers or controller manufacturers. They never deal with the things and always refer to their suppliers.

The only PRO suppliers are the really expensive embedded system companies such as the ones that work with car manufacturers, or maybe https://www.valence.com/ valence etc. They are not interested in one offs or small scale stuff...

Before it becomes practical and sensible in powerchairs the controller, motor, battery, and powerchair manufacturer will all need to get together and build components designed to work as a unit integrated as one with some connection and charge standards and at 48 or 72V and brushless. Only then will we see modern chairs that belong in this century with small light efficient motors, small batteries, and reliable battery with dumb plug and play charging as per now.

[expresso]

Look its not that hard.

Expresso had no clue, went a bit mental, bought a fully equiped workshop, soldering irons, learnt to solder, and eventually did a good job, learnt a lot, and now has an addon, a full pack, and a load of knowledge he never had. And now the confidence to fix things himself.

True, we broke him a couple of times. And now he gabbles incoherently and makes thousands word posts that non of us understand. But it was worth it. Ask him.

yes i did go mental now i cant stop talking about it - with other users - but i think i shouldnt talk too much - they all want to know what i did etc, etc, but once i start to explain whats involved etc, - how to charge after - it dies there - they like it and want the range etc, but not going to do - for many reasons - and then they ask about the cost - i try to make it sound good - only 25 dollars - a Cell - you need 56 of them -

beside the labor - other parts etc, - i suggest the ADD ON for anyone to get there feet wet sort of and not touch the chair much - who knows how the vendor will handle changing out the batteries with a DIY pack -

[Burgerman]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5702&p=83149#p83149

[shirley_hkg]

Interested to know what plans do you have for charging , if PL8 discontinued.

There is very limited hobby chargers in the market that are capable of 8S and above.

Didn't you learn something from the Hyperion 1420i , do you ?

[snaker]

Interested to know what plans do you have for charging , if PL8 discontinued.

There is very limited hobby chargers in the market that are capable of 8S and above.

Didn't you learn something from the Hyperion 1420i , do you ?

My answer: make a DIY charger at home same as making a battery pack

[Burgerman]

There are a few different options for 8s. And 10S. And even for 14S. But not that have PC capability.

So if discontinued I will buy a few spares...

Its not really a problem though, as its simple to charge an 8S pack with say 2x 4S charges. I do this now with my 13S pack on my BM3 using 2x PL8 chargers.

Quick 10 sec search...
http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/st ... arger.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _x_2_.html
https://www.rcgeeks.co.uk/electric/powe ... arger.html
PLUS A BIGGER AMP ONE...
http://nl.aliexpress.com/item/SkyRC-Ult ... .17.mDV0Rc

Theres loads when you look. How good/bad they are would need examination! Most are crap.

[Irving]

Interested to know what plans do you have for charging , if PL8 discontinued.

There is very limited hobby chargers in the market that are capable of 8S and above.

Didn't you learn something from the Hyperion 1420i , do you ?

My answer: make a DIY charger at home same as making a battery pack

That's not as stupid as it first sounds. It wouldn't take long to design a dedicated charger for our needs. The hardware is quite simple really and the clever stuff is all software. With a collective effort I reckon a working solution could be done in a month or so...

[gcebiker]

I use these BMS from ebay in my LiFePo4 battery packs in two different wheelchairs, one folding and one three wheeler.

My battery packs are only 12ah but maybe a few of these would get the job done, your high discharge might be the only issue but i bet the guys that make them could tweak it to suit your needs.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271957202403 ... EBIDX%3AIT

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BMS.htm

BMS? Seriously?

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BMS.htm

BMS? Seriously?

And...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1813

[expresso]

Ok i am ready to start using my full 105ah pack chair daily - i am spoiled now - besides the speed and range is insane - compared to LEAD - the chair is just so much smoother - comfortable etc, - Rnet feels better to me than the Pilot plus -

i did 15.8 miles today with a friend - i am a bit surprised hes hanging in there with his LEAD - group 22 - i think he got AGM - not MK Gel for sure

hes always looking at his green light - and wont go further knowing - i dont blame him - i did the same thing before -

i just finished charging - i did charge up this morning before i went out - i think its safe to assume i can double this range and be fine - maybe 35 miles and have a bit to spare -

[Burgerman]

15,8 miles used 35.8Ah correct?
Actually its even less since you always put more back. Say 33Ah at most used.

So 3x 33 = 99Ah leaving you 6 left in reserve,

15.8 real world measured miles x 3 = 47.4 Miles usable.
With 6Ah and 3 miles in reserve. Based on your own data.

If you prefer 50 miles range till it stops...

This is perfect download/file.php?id=5135&mode=view The advantage of measuriing all those cells self discharge and all that effort building a carefully assembled pack. If you post the charge profile here, I will make a few behind the scenes changes that will allow it to charge evenbetter. And send you it back.

[expresso]

that would be great - i should be able to make it to the GWB into NJ and back with just the 105ah pack - but since i never took that trip before - not sure what i will run into - i may just take the ADD ON with me when i do that just to be safe -

i was thinking of just hanging it on my chair but not connecting it - to see if i can make it with just the 105ah - if i see that i may not make it back - i can ask someone to connect the cable and then should be fine to finish -

or just connect the cable from the start and leave it alone - i reason i figure not to connect it first is so i know for sure the 105ah made it on its own - but i know its better to connect them from the start so they all drain evenly -

these are the presets you made for me - i made a few more with different charge rates only - i used the Normal Charge preset for that charge - 15A

tell me if you can download these - if i did it correctly -

thanks

[expresso]

IF you can - when you get a moment - NO rush - BM - you can check these settings also - Combined Lead MK Gel 24 with the 36ah ADD ON -
my tech. appt. is for the 17th - i told them no rush - i will be using the 105ah chair from now on - at least most of the summer rides anyway - i missed him yesterday - he was here for someone else - i ran into him when i got back -

he mentioned about a rubber spray sealant - he said if i get it - when all done - we can spray over everything to form like a rubber seal - giving it that little extra security - after the locktite i will add also -

sounds like a good idea - any reason its not ?

thanks -

[Burgerman]

Use these instead. Delete old ones. Settings you cannot see adjusted.

[expresso]

ok - i can just change charge rate and nothing else - make a few -

whats the change on this compared to other one ? ok i see you did it for me - thanks will use these later -

[Burgerman]

Theres a few differences but nothing that will concern you, and mostly to stop error messages with unbalanced cells etc. And A123 lable now LiFe.

And:

[expresso]

Ok i will get rid of everything i have in presets and just use these new ones - i have so many which are old - etc, be modified by you since we first started - got too messy in the folder - will put everyone in one OLD folder - and NEW PRESET Folder for these -

here is the 36ah ADD ON only preset - if you can talk a look at it - needs any changes etc, -

[Burgerman]

Done.

[expresso]

Thanks alot !!! - i have the other presets you made - for the Lead only - those should be fine ? i dont think i be using them anyway

about to check my settings on the Rnet chair 105ah pack - will start making changes to the settings now as i use the chair - i have it at 40 motor comp. seems fine - up from 30 original -

here are the Lead presets you made at first - if you want to look - i never used them -