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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 11 Dec 2016, 14:19

So meter back in to the pack is the only way to do that providing the charger can do it. I believe that charger can, it's just a balance of cost over benefit, though convenience is the primary benefit with that charger.

Every choice is a compromise.

So the SOC/Ah/fuel gauge is a solid concept? I believe you mentioned something similar earlier in the thread, the one linked above will run off the pack voltage so as such will be a load across the whole pack, and not contribute to unbalancing the pack?


No. You can do it once. Take say 70Ah out, replace 60Ah. Next day you can only take some lesser amount out, and return even less Ah.
You may do it twice maybe, but will need to put back less each time as you no longer know properly where you are or how out of balance.

And you can only do this over a short time period because you dont know which cell group is getting out of step. Through temp difference, and self discharge differences between groups.

I may add say 30Ah back after removing 40, as measured with a simple Turnigy watt meter. But I will only do that while in my van as I drive for eg. But since the hobby charger plugs into the same van connector just as easily, I bought recently a third one... It is safer and can give a full charge/balance. Allows me to be sure, and top up and balance.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 13 Dec 2016, 02:31

I think this seems like a replay of a discussion we had a while back....

As I see it, one of the problems with a Lithium setup is that the voltage is useless as a 'fuel gage' - BUT if travelling a good way from home or similar place, I see a need to have some sort of fuel gage that gives at least a vague idea of how much power is left before one comes to a screeching halt because the battery voltage has fallen off a cliff and you have no power left to move without destroying the pack...

Also it isn't practical for most of us to haul a proper PL-8 or equivalent, plus a power supply and so on around with us, but a compact item (say the size of a "mobility brick" charger) is reasonable....

So I think Dogsbody's idea about tracking Ah in and out will give at least an approximate idea of how much is left in the pack, and having a small, limited function charger, as a 'get you home' box for emergency use isn't unreasonable...

I can't comment on the gear that DB is talking about, but what BM said when I was asking about this, is that it is at least possible... (IIRC correctly, the Ah counting capability is even sort of built into Lenny's arduino control stack for the Roboteq setup....)

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 13 Dec 2016, 04:52

this can be done very easily with nothing to carry or attach - IF - the chair itself with the joystick - is able to track the mileage of the chair -- My Rnet is able to do that - so with a few rides - testing - going further and further each time -

i track the miles on my joystick and figured it out very easily that with my 105ah pack - i can do easy and safely 40 Miles - between charges - with the PL 8 - i can see what i used each time - so with 40 miles used - i used about 90ah -

leaving me about 15ah left over - this is how i am doing it - when i charge i can see how much i am putting back - each time i go out - i clear the miles on my joystick - i have a full charge - zero miles - and i go out - if you wanted to carry a dumb charger small compact - 8 Amp charge - i guess that would work if you used half a pack - you know you can charge a few hours easy and not worry - but thats a few hours sitting doing nothing - for not much gain really -
the PL 8 with the 12V PSU - its small enough to stick in a backpack just the same - and can do easy 15A to 20A charging - unless you do ALOT of riding each time in between charges - dont have to carry any chargers around -

40 Miles is a long Ride - the most i done is 44 miles - with the extra ADD ON just to be safe - had plenty of juice left over - if you dont have a joystick that tracks miles - then maybe your smartphone GPS - can track it - use that with the PL 8 when you get home to charge to figure it out - even if its not perfect - give yourself some room for error - i think its good enough
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Dogsbody » 13 Dec 2016, 19:06

Hi again...

I have re-read the specs of the charger I discussed to find that it cannot meter an Ah into the pack, so that idea is out of the window for a top balanced pack.

It could work by turning the principle of battery management on it's head, by bottom balancing the pack instead. you will sacrifice some capacity doing that.

I will be using the ev display from clean power auto:

http://cleanpowerauto.com/store/#!/EV-Display/p/63894039/category=0

As neither chair has the R-net, and 'fuel gauge'=useful
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 13 Dec 2016, 19:25

Cant help wondering what the point is. And bottom balancing usually ends badly... It still wont read accurately without a full top up and balance charge. And that screws up your bottom balancing.

Been using lithium in chairs, helis, planes, quad copters for years on end. Never needed a gauge yet. If your pack in a powerchair is adequately sized you cant do that many miles in a day without aiming to do it on purpose Even then its hard... I never managed it. I can do about 65 miles on my 6mph BM2 rebuild according to the calc (untried yet). And easily 40+ real world on my other chairs. Its just not an issue. With a relatively small 105Ah one espresso gets 40+ on his GPS. And I suspect that's a more accurate way to do it than the meter you just linked to. Because it relies on voltage unless you top it up to full to reset its 'drift'...

Almost as accurate as that is the cheap 150A turnigy watt meter. Now 180A... I use a couple all the time. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-180 ... lyzer.html Takes about 6Ah to get to the pub and back!
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 13 Dec 2016, 20:21

Burgerman wrote:
Almost as accurate as that is the cheap 150A turnigy watt meter. Now 180A... I use a couple all the time. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-180 ... lyzer.html Takes about 6Ah to get to the pub and back!


Do you have that thing wired into the mains power of your pack on a chair?
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 13 Dec 2016, 20:45

My main power packs all have Anderson connectors. My chargers too. And that thing has a couple fitted...

So I plug it in the main loom, or between a charger and a battery, or wherever. Theres one on my chair I am sat in. Right now theres 3 plugged into my various solar panel setup too. Older 150A ones. So I can see which panels are giving me the most watt hours per day.

I move them about as needed. They don't count regeneration though. Which on most days amounts to just a few percent. You can measure that over a day too, just plug it in the opposite way around.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 13 Dec 2016, 21:22

Ok, so your using it to monitor how much power gets put back into the battery from the charger..
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 13 Dec 2016, 22:42

I do that in the van. I also use it between battery and power module to see how many Ah are used when I go places.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 14 Dec 2016, 00:27

Burgerman wrote:I do that in the van. I also use it between battery and power module to see how many Ah are used when I go places.


That's how I'd want to use it. Only issue would be I'd have to lengthen/rerout my power wires between the battery and power module to be able to reach and read it.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Dogsbody » 14 Dec 2016, 01:19

I do take your points on board, and yes I accept I am making some issues where there shouldn't be any.

I need to make one pack that is in the same household as me, and another that will be a 6 hour round trip to sort any physical issues. I can make errors and do testing on setup on the chair close to home. Any suggestions on how to make the system as user friendly as possible, to be understood in terms of a user that only has experience of current technology, without having to understand everything?

That is the goal, a system that is simple for the user, that is robust enough to have a checkup once every 2 months or so, when I'll be able to swap the battery's out for a couple of days for a health check?

'Er indoors and her sister are both intelligent and capable, and will be able to sort out certain problems. I'm not trying to build a system to sell. My focus is to make the end user interface simple.

I assume the PL8 is able to do a full charge cycle without needing to connect to a computer every time?

Thank you
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 14 Dec 2016, 02:33

Yes the PL8 has presets which you can program. Once you have, say, Preset One configured with your desired settings, you can just verify the right preset is selected on the PL8 and hit the go button so no PC needed.. If the charger is only ever going to be used to charge the chair's pack, you can configure all the presets for a LiFe pack and not worry about it
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 14 Dec 2016, 08:31

Plug in, press go...

You can hide every preset but the one you want. You can also lock it... So nobody can change it.

Then its almost as easy as the dumb charger she uses now. Thats as easy as it can be made. Sometimes you need to learn a thing or two to be at the cutting edge, knowledge is power. Not everything can be dumbed down to the level that most consumers insist on. If you want the advantages some knowledge and effort may be required. Hence the manufacturers use lead, or BMS systems... Or you start looking at very complex custom embedded system like car makers are doing.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby frogsuk » 15 Dec 2016, 20:38

Can anyone please check these PL8v2 settings the following battery.
Code: Select all
   Nominal voltage: 3.2V   
Nominal Capacity : 65Ah   
Battery type : LiFePo4   
Charge current: 30.0A (maximum 55A  )   
Internal resistance: ≤2mΩ   
Maximum charging voltage: (3.65 + -0.05V)   
Rated Discharge current: 150A   
Continuous discharge current: 250A (5C)   
Maximum Pluse discharge current: 450A (8C)   
Minimum discharge voltage: 2.2V   


would these settings be ok?
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby frogsuk » 15 Dec 2016, 20:39

C6.JPG

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby frogsuk » 15 Dec 2016, 20:40

C7.JPG
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2016, 22:11

Safety charge stop: NO (if its on my preset then this is disabled behind the scenes anyway or extended to 350mV) Or it will stop charging on a cell imbalance over x mV.

Termination should happen at the point where the charge Amps falls to 1/300th of capacity. You have it set to terminate when voltage is reached. That wont work. You need to set it to MANUAL, and then set 220mA to 250mA termination current. CV timeout should be 8 hours. Or it will never get chance to end charge properly or balance an unbalanced pack if things are out of whack.

Charge current is best around 18A but will WORK at 30. Your cells will like 15 to 20 more!

Use Fuel table, should be set to NO.

Charge timeout should be set to max which is 16 hours. Or again it wont balance a less than perfect pack,
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 15 Dec 2016, 23:36

First charge results after sitting for about 2 months - i used the chair for a few miles the other day - thats it - i wanted to see how much was lost sitting around -

very little lost - considered i used it for a few miles also - i recharged it now and discharged it a bit - just removed about 4ah - will leave alone for winter -

using the 12V PSU - my new PL 8 will be shipped tomorrow - exchange for the Bad unit i returned
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 16 Dec 2016, 02:12

More importantly it remained well balanced. You would be better taking around 30% out of it for storing till spring really.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 16 Dec 2016, 06:30

how many ah is that about ? about 30ah - or i can use it around short trip - a few blocks here and there - would that be good enough ?
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 16 Dec 2016, 09:54

Yes or use the charger to take it out.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 16 Dec 2016, 17:50

Burgerman wrote:Yes or use the charger to take it out.


yeah - doing that now - using the charger - too cold to go out anyway - i will leave it a few hours - at least 4 or 5 hours - would be about 21ah removed - should be good i think -

will try to use my older chair when ever with the ADD ON - i can leave the chair sitting till April i think easy - it didnt loose much at all - i believe it was approx two months - actually i noticed i never changed the day light savings time on the R net so when ever that way - its been sitting since about then :)

wont bother changing it - by the time i use it again - time will be correct again
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 21 Dec 2016, 04:56

I have two 15ah Headway cells left over from when i did the full pack -

would it be Ok if i used them to make another ADD ON - lets say for the indoor chair - just 8 Cells 15ah Add on - for indoor chair only - would it be Ok - i can purchase 6 more when i make another order and use the 2 Cells i have from last year - add 6 more ?


next question - if i end up getting more cells for a 45ah ADD On - would it benefit me to charge them and have them sit for a month or two - then recharge etc, to try to make a more balanced pack ? like when doing a larger pack -

i understand the benefit of doing that with the large pack - does it offer the same benefit with a smaller Add on also ?

15ah cells - 3 rows - would it be helpful or just a waste of time with such a small pack ?

thanks
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby shirley_hkg » 21 Dec 2016, 07:52

:? 15Ah is too small , and is subject to heavy load , when it is full . :x
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2016, 10:28

You could add a series diode (like a 100A solar blocking diode and a heat sink), That would lose .7V and allow the lead battery to take most of the load.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 21 Dec 2016, 17:59

shirley_hkg wrote: :? 15Ah is too small , and is subject to heavy load , when it is full . :x


Ok - if i did this - it would be just the indoor chair - inside the house - never going outside - i just figured it would keep the Lead in the chair last for many more years - the way it is now - i can get 5 years i think with Lead alone the way its used indoors -

was a though - maybe i wont even bother or make it 2 rows of 15ah cells - giving me 30ah total add on -

i was curious if i can make use of the Two extra 15ah cells i have laying around doing nothing - do you think i can make use of those two - if i went down this road ?

i may not bother - all depends if i am keeping that chair or not - after i get another new one - Soon my apt. is looking like a dealer showroom and monster garage :mrgreen:
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 29 Dec 2016, 19:16

http://www.lithiumstorage.com/index.php ... /view/1/18

why would this type not be a good kind for wheelchair building ? is it the C rate ? looks like 8 of these would be great -

found this site - talks about BMS also -

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls. ... thium.html
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 29 Dec 2016, 19:32

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls. ... stems.html

HERE is their take on BMS...

I talked to Jack Rickard from EVTV, who won't even let a car with a battery management system (BMS) charge in his garage because of the risk of fire...


Jack: The BMS business has attracted a lot of quick buck artists who see a fortune in protecting the high cost of the LiFePo4 cells. Unfortunately, the people designing and building these rarely even know how or why a cell is charged and so their design efforts are a little poor.

So you think the problem is less that a BMS is a bad idea itself - it's more that the available battery management systems are built by people who don't know what they're doing.

Essentially yes. But in the process of LOOKING for a good lithium battery management system, we've had now nearly four years without them and very good luck with the batteries! Because we couldn't find one, we didn't have one, and after a certain amount of time just decided they didn't make sense. They do not appear to be needed at all.

BMS systems vastly complicate the car, and fail much more often than the cells they purport to protect. As a result, we've had at least 20 fires now, really quite hideous fires, that seem to point to the BMS as the culprit. We do some basic instrumentation on our batteries...

So what your instrumentation does is make the driver aware of the situation going on with the batteries, the heat and voltage and such, but there isn't an automatic programmable thing that responds to that feedback on its own. Is that right?

Correct...and not only don't use a BMS, we won't allow a car WITH a BMS to charge indoors here. They have to do it outside. In some cases, they are quite lethal.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 29 Dec 2016, 19:56

Remember we DO have a Battery Management System. A SYSTEM however, not a circuit board! But we split things up:.

a) We use a very accurate superior battery charger that also controls cell balance which is better than any BMS... Thats half the BMS jobs dispensed with and done better...

b) We already have the current limiting built in to our controllers, combined with adequate C rating and capacity, to exceed all possible DEMAND requirements here. So no BMS limiting is now needed or wanted. Thats most of the rest of its job done!


And the only thing not covered directly is over discharge. And we can monitor this with a tiny cell log as used by hobby people. Or come home long before we run it into the red... Lose a light or two? Then stop! Or just program the chairs controller to do this, and it will stop you just like a BMS.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 29 Dec 2016, 21:10

i just got off the phone with Bounder chair sales rep. - asked some questions on the chair - i asked about the lithium package - it only comes in the grp 24 size replacement - not the huge grp. 27 battery box - i wasnt able to get the specs out of him - the pack size etc, - not sure if he knew or didnt want to say - i questioned the range with it - was told about 50 miles -

not sure if thats true - if i get 40 miles safely with 15ah left over - and its a 105ah pack - theres would be in a box like a battery with BMS i am sure - i asked about the 48V model also - cost would be alot more - i didnt get the price for it -

speed would increase to approx. 15 mph -

i asked about the downside if going up hills etc, - was told since i am not too heavy - about 160lbs - it wouldnt be a issue and chair wouldnt slow down going up hills - there control system makes the adjustments - it has 6 speed settings etc,

options for control joystick is either there own - or another one which you guys mentioned here before - forget the name - its not Rnet - they dont use it now because not enough Amps for there chairs - he recommended there own System controller - more power etc, - and he would be able to sell me the programmer - if i wanted privately from them - and cheaper than retail list - its hand held - no PC software etc, -
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