PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

[shirley_hkg]

Shirley how do you fit 624 of those 26650's in your chair, do you have a custom battery compartment or something? ......

Instead , 72 * 8 = 576 pieces of SONY 3000mah cells .

They are as good as it gets . Very pleased .

See my first charge graph of it with PL8 . Took no time for balance .

In a SS box 380 * 282 * 275h .

No tricks at all .

Spent £700.00

[Gnomatic]

So my math was off - anyway, awesome pack! I saw the charge graphs before, Very impressive! Twice the capacity of the pack I'm working on.

[expresso]

Shirley how do you fit 624 of those 26650's in your chair, do you have a custom battery compartment or something? ......

Instead , 72 * 8 = 576 pieces of SONY 3000mah cells .

They are as good as it gets . Very pleased .

See my first charge graph of it with PL8 . Took no time for balance .

In a SS box 380 * 282 * 275h .

No tricks at all .

Spent £700.00

by any chance do you have any pictures of this Pack - ? if you do can you post what you have - i like to take a look - - i would think its alot of work dealing with smaller cells - but it worked and you got alot of Ah out of it -
would be a real pain if you had to find a bad cell in that pack though -

that fitted in the same space of group 24 batteries ? - also - SS box - i would think its better in a plastic one ?

[Burgerman]

Are these LiFe or Lithium ion?
If lithium ion how do you get over the too high volts with 8S? And do you have asbestos underwear?

[expresso]

http://www.batteryjunction.com/sony-vtc ... -flat.html

would these be it ?

[Gnomatic]

Think these are Shirley's cells or close to it

https://www.akkuteile.de/lifepo-akkus/2 ... /a-100719/

72 x 3Ah = 216Ah which lines up with shirley's pack's specs

[expresso]

its alot of work thats for sure - no screws to work with - have to solder alot - dosnt seem cheap though - at least not the prices here - maybe in HK - or if he got NOS at a lower cost - its working for him - thats great - that has to be over a 100 miles of range ?

[Burgerman]

For the charging of lithium iron phosphate batteries, a special charger is required, which charges the batteries according to a special charging procedure. (CC/CV = constant current, constant voltage.)

Do not charge the batteries with a higher voltage than 3.6 volts. It is advantageous to charge the batteries only up to approx. 3.5 volts, as this significantly increases the service life or number of charge cycles (possibly up to a doubling). Only lithium chargers may be used for charging. Only lithium chargers with a charge up to 3.6V may be used for charging.

It also says this above in german...

And again the manufacturer recommends 3.65 just like headway and other lithium ion phosphate manufacturers. That helps crappy BMS balance and gives faster charge, at the cost of service life.

3.60 good balance, can be used with AGM and an Add-on lithium pack. Voltage matches.
3.55 is what I use mostly,
3.525 is the same as gel batteries CV so good to charge combined lead/lithium add-on setups. And the long termination matches both. And the lithium holds the lead high after the charge so helps de-sulfate/finish the lead charge.
3.50 takes a very long time, needs a very low sub 1000thC termination point, and OK if you have time and a suitable charger with powerful balance capability. This will give best cycle life. If the long wait and less well balanced batteries are not an issue. Still ends up full.

Lower than this voltage will not charge them or balance them properly no matter how long you wait.

[shirley_hkg]

Friend's carer pulled out the last balance lead (26V) , but PL8 still charged the 8S pack . Not good is it as that cell might not be monitored ?

Suggest not to select AUTO CELL COUNT .

[Burgerman]

I normally dont. Auto has a narrower acceptable cell voltage extreme limits too. So can give errors.
I thought it would give an error if a balance wire was disconnected too. Maybe not the plus or minus one as they are connected to main leads?

[snaker]

Instead , 72 * 8 = 576 pieces of SONY 3000mah cells .

They are as good as it gets . Very pleased .

See my first charge graph of it with PL8 . Took no time for balance .

In a SS box 380 * 282 * 275h .

No tricks at all .

Spent £700.00

@Shirley: Is a "SS box" made of metal, steel? Can it cause any electric problems? Do you keep links that sell these SS boxes?

[snaker]

Do you usually deal with the female D-Sub on the pack side? Do you leave it out of the battery box (I mean it's reeved through a hole on the battery box)? Or is it mounted inside the battery box so it only exposes its sockets to the outside?

[Burgerman]

Whatever works best for you.

[snaker]

Whatever works best for you.

I cannot know which works best in the real life. You used it, you knew it. I have not.

[Burgerman]

I have the female powerchair end fixed to the seat frame on one side, so I can connect with one hand while sitting in the chair. That may or may not be best for you.

[shirley_hkg]

Whatever works best for you.

I cannot know which works best in the real life. You used it, you knew it. I have not.

If your battery box can be taken out in one piece completely , it will be better to mount the Dsub connector onto it . It will then allow you to complete the assembly and put back to chair .

In case you wanna check it out sometimes , simply unplug the mains , and take it out .

You are lucky , if your chair's setup allows .

[snaker]

The battery box can be easily pulled out. I am contacting the powerchair company to buy additional battery boxes. After having them, I will get started into the PL8 world.

[shirley_hkg]

66 inches , longest I ever made . Hope no problem .

[expresso]

nice cable - you be fine - thats the reason you doubled up on the balance pins for each wire - better IR - you used 10 AWG cable for the power leads also on the connector end ?

why did you need it so long ?

[steves1977uk]

The reason to keep the cable as short as possible is there's less voltage drop, but of course you can overcome this by using thicker wires or double up like Shirley has done.

Steve

[ex-Gooserider]

Do you usually deal with the female D-Sub on the pack side? Do you leave it out of the battery box (I mean it's reeved through a hole on the battery box)? Or is it mounted inside the battery box so it only exposes its sockets to the outside?

The key question is how you need it set up in order to be easy to charge... Decide where you want the charger connection to be and work backwards from that, in terms of how to do the wiring.

As an example -

On my H-frame project chairs, the two battery boxes (each sized for one Group 24 lead brick) slide out the back, but it is not something you want to do regularly. The stock wiring uses Anderson SB-50's with "blind mating" adapters to connect the battery boxes to the chair and each other... The front box slides in on guides and automatically plugs into the chair wiring, and the rear box slides in and plugs itself into the front box.

I want the charger plug on the side of the chair in the front where I can reach it while in the chair...

The design of the boxes is such that it would be very hard to wire directly to them, as there are clearance issues above the lids.

My plan is to use some blind mating connectors (there are a couple different families of Molex connectors I'm looking at) that I will mount alongside the existing Anderson connectors. The connector in the rear box will mate with one in the front box. The front box will mate with a connector on the chair. I will then have a short harness between the connector the box plugs into and the D-connector on the chair that I will plug the charger into...

ex-Gooserider

[shirley_hkg]

Could it be restored to 2 PL8 ?

[steves1977uk]

Don't think you can restore the PL8's presets to DPL8, although it might work since its just two PL8s in one unit.

Steve

[Burgerman]

No its not.

Its got no charge via the balance ports alone capability, (FMA wiring mode) and uses different connectors. Also has different input voltage range. So different firmware, different software, etc as well as different electronics.

[Gnomatic]

My plan is to use some blind mating connectors (there are a couple different families of Molex connectors I'm looking at) that I will mount alongside the existing Anderson connectors. The connector in the rear box will mate with one in the front box. The front box will mate with a connector on the chair. I will then have a short harness between the connector the box plugs into and the D-connector on the chair that I will plug the charger into...

ex-Gooserider

That's the same battery box design of my old Invacare Arrow H frame style chair as well. It was convenient for a couple reasons. Battery access was easy. And, I always kept a spare set of batteries in a spare set of boxes. So if I was going to be on trails for the afternoon, I'd run one set down in two or three hours. We usually had an ATV around, and would load my spare set onto it. And when needed, swap to the fresh set of bats and I could keep going. Worked pretty well back in the day, all things considered.

[Burgerman]

Test today. And same test yesterday.

Get up, clean house, running around room to room with vacuum, water about 30 outdoor plants/trees with hose, etc. Then into town centre, and in and out of a lot of shops, cafe, bank etc. All in all many hundreds of turns, so 2 hours, and then home. Battery meter in orange.

Day 1 was 24Ah returned. Day 2 was 22Ah returned. Considering I only went about 3.5 miles, (not measured this time but similar trips were before).

So considering this chair has Odyssey batts, and they show a flashing red after 40Ah used (and measured), then thats about 7 or 8 miles total REAL WORLD use. Yet if I intend to go on a long trip, and leave the house straight away, dont shop, and just ride on footpaths (pavement/sidewalk) I get 16 to 18 miles.

Fortunately, 1 hour at 40A recharge, gives you almost all of it back for the rest of the day. What beats me is all these people that don't see any range problems! What do they do every day?

[expresso]

they do nothing - they think they are out all day - and they are - but doing nothing - in the same 3 block radias - and turn the joystick off and on each time if they are not moving - take buses - trains etc, - but in real life use of the chair - they hardly use it - i knew someone like that where he stated his batteries are over 5 years old and are still great in the green - - he fails to mention he takes a bus everywhere and just hangs around not really riding around

its useless trying to explain how it really works - hes no longer with us - was a good man - thats just one example and the rest of the 95% of users - same story - and they are a few who do use it and are always in the Red carry there charger and keep charging and charging - but never really do a full charge - as we now know - the chargers themselves are the problem also - the one guy swore that he over charged his batteries and thats why they are dead -

his idea of over charging is using the charge they gave him - but just used it too many times so its over charged - trying to explain thats not the fact or reason your batteries are dead - if someone wants to really understand it - they have to get involved and want to understand it -

the way i have and many others here have and once you do get a grip on the truth of the matter - then it opens up a whole new way of doing things - then you either stay the same - knowing the results - or make a change for the better -

[Burgerman]

Its the same with cars. I used to drive the wheels off them, everywhere. Cant now because of cameras. I mean hard! And hammer brakes, tyres, engines at max everything most of the time. My grandma had a 10 year old car in the days when that was old. Wanted me to take it for a blast. So she was sure it would take her on a long trip.

How she drove it I dont know. Brakes were hopeless, and pulled violently to one side and poured off smoke if used hard, worn out covered in rust, hardly ever been used and not sure the rear worked at all. Clutch slipped (manual car) it jumped out of 2nd gear if you let it rev hard under power, and after around 5 mins of real driving it was rattling, smoking horrendously from both engine bay and exhaust, and overheated so there was steam pouring out! And the exhaust started blowing where the rust had been blown out rather loudly. It was rotten, ripped off by hand! She drove it for a decade and couldn't tell there was anything wrong. 5 mins hard driving just destroyed it. Or rather showed up all its faults fast! Basically all of it!

I gave her mine. It wasn't worth much, and I was after something different. But totally sorted and bomb proof mechanically. She couldn't tell the difference. So a happy granny.

[ex-Gooserider]

Invacare made a bunch of different chairs that all used the same frame and basic design... The Storm, Ranger X, and Arrow were the most common, and if you look for the manuals, they all use the same parts book.... It appears that you could get pretty much any configuration in any of the different names (not surprising since the only REAL difference was which sticker was on the side of the chair...) but as best I can tell the usual tendency was for the Storm to be the bariatric version (slow motors, extra heavy suspension) the Arrow to be the GB-motor version, and the Ranger-X to be the 'everything else' version...

They also made it in both Group 24 and Group 22NF battery setups... I haven't studied the parts book real hard, but it appeared possible to convert between the two setups but not easily as one would need a bunch of different parts for the frames, plus different boxes and so on....

ex-Gooserider

My plan is to use some blind mating connectors (there are a couple different families of Molex connectors I'm looking at) that I will mount alongside the existing Anderson connectors. The connector in the rear box will mate with one in the front box. The front box will mate with a connector on the chair. I will then have a short harness between the connector the box plugs into and the D-connector on the chair that I will plug the charger into...

ex-Gooserider

That's the same battery box design of my old Invacare Arrow H frame style chair as well. It was convenient for a couple reasons. Battery access was easy. And, I always kept a spare set of batteries in a spare set of boxes. So if I was going to be on trails for the afternoon, I'd run one set down in two or three hours. We usually had an ATV around, and would load my spare set onto it. And when needed, swap to the fresh set of bats and I could keep going. Worked pretty well back in the day, all things considered.

[Gnomatic]

In the PL8 control software, I went to the "Options" tab. I don't want the charger to beep when its done charging while I'm sleeping. So I set Charge Done Beeps to None.

Is that sufficient?

I see a Quiet Charging option right there also. Does enabling that setting mute the charger entirely?